Author Topic: Orange juice - hardest material ever  (Read 2979 times)

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Online Andrew_G

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Orange juice - hardest material ever
« on: March 12, 2019, 07:30:16 am »
Hi,

As usual I need some help:)

I`m trying to recreate orange juice material. It was hard in blender, it was hard in vray (but possible), and as I can see it's quite hard in KS. After many different attempts I managed to set my material (orange_juice_1.jpg). This is Plastic (Cloud) material with some temporary bubbles to see is it looking good.

I`m not saying it is perfect, but with few orange juice bottles around me I figured out that this is most representative material that I can create. It may need some tweaking but in general I think that it looks more or less ok.

What is bothering me is that it needs a lot of time to render. But it's not the worst. When I put this liquid into glass everything is starting looking bad.

First of all it is super dark. (orange_juice_2.jpg) It is super noisy and no matter how long I will render it, it will always look bad.

I tried all render options, I increased samples for the plastic( cloud) and glass. I set ray bounces to 256, I played along with GI samples, tried to turn on and off caustics and nothing happened. Of course I had some better or worse results, but all were far from being ok.

Best result I achieved was when I used normal Glass (not solid one) with refractions. Despite that I set to white color, my orange juice looks pretty dull and dark. When I render to PSD (which I always do) glass part are transparent and very ugly (not natural glass). (orange_juice_3.jpg & orange_juice_3_transparent.jpg)

Honestly? I played with it for two days, and my results are still pretty bad. Can you recommend me some other orange juice material, or solution for fast rendering of Plastic (cloudy) with glass objects? Because otherwise I think that my head may explode in any minute now!


« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 07:33:19 am by Andrew_G »

Offline Josip_ZG

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 03:59:08 am »
This looks like a good practice. I will give it a try in the next couple of days to see what I can do. But I don't think you've done a bad job at all. Most orange juices I know don't have bubbles at all. It would be useful if you would post images you refered to when creating this material.
Post processing your current results in Photoshop could do a good job. Look at some liqour and beer posters, you'll see all of them are taken in studio with carefully set lighting and then some post production to enhance effects.

Also, what kind of results did the liquid material produce?

Attached:
Beer amateur photo
Same beer in studio

See how dull the first photo looks.

Offline Eric Summers

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 06:32:04 am »
There is an orange juice material in under Liquids in the Materials Library. Perhaps you could use that as a reference for your orange juice.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2019, 06:49:15 am »
http://Https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=22241.45

there is oj in this post, look for it it looks pretty good, maybe claudius can help you out?

Online Andrew_G

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2019, 12:35:18 pm »
Thank you guys for your kind anwsers.

I`m trying to recreate ultimate orange juice material for certain purpose. I need to create a packshot on white background with and without label. That's why orange juice must looks really convincing. I wont have any additional visual enhancements (background, floor, special light effect), that's why all juice have to be in... juice itself:)

I tried to start from orange juice from material library, but that is just simple translucent material. To be honest this translucent material works better than similar shader in Vray and Corona - at least in my opinion. The problem is that it is still not realistic enough.

My inspiration is real juice, that stands on my desk. What I figured it should look like on my diagram.

A - on top there should be small gradient from light yellow to almost transparent liquid on top
B - in the middle there should be gentle gradient from light yellow to a little bit darker
C - at the bottom - depends on what light you use, there should be a small brightening (or darker parts in other light conditions)
D - i'm not sure about it, but at the edges color should be less saturated as you can see through less amount of liquid

At the moment I`m using translucent material as it's making best job with short render times (I need to render my packshot in high resolution for printing issues). But to achieve desired effect I'm using additional lights that makes some lighter parts in OJ. It is fake, and it still doesnt look good.

In my opinion best effect can be achieved by using Plastic (Cloudy) - OJ is still little waxy, but in general it looks most realistic. And almost no addtional work is needed to achieve good effect. Problem is, that it's almost impossible to put this material into glass - as render times takes waaaay to long... They take too long even for preview purposes, not to mention final renderings.

Thats why I`m in such a mess:)

Offline puyopuyo

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 04:46:01 pm »
Hi Andrew,  :)
I think you are off to a good start!

I made a quick study of a clean OJ juice bottle and don´t know if this is what you are looking for, but here´s is how I did it.
Much of the transluceny look from my juice renderings came from Photoshop post work. I am no material wizard like many others in this forum and often use standard Keyshot materials for my work which have a great clean look.
For the glass I used Solid Glass White, for the juice the Keyshot Mango juice material, with standard settings(samples set to 50). I put 2 pins behind the glass to get a basic foundation for the gradients you mentioned and 2 half pins on the side of the glass. The rendering took 20 minutes on my 10 year old i7 3930K at 1500*1500 with 100 samples, product mode. For print I would have render over night. :D

As you can see in the breakdown gif the rendering came out pretty dark too. It was the same in my juicer rendering from my thread.
In PS I made an Brightness contrast adjustment and raised both to about 30.
I always use layers filled with 50% grey and set to overlay blend mode in which I paint with the Burn and Dodge tool to add more depth and highlights to my renderings. This has to subtle or else it will look very bad! :D I use 10% Exposure on the Burn/Dodge tool, In this case the dodge tool makes the highlight colors a bit more yellow which is welcomed for OJ. Here I decided to make the left side brighter for some dynamic. With glass I try to make the outlines darker to give it a more solid look-

Then I made a new layer set to soft light and added some light yellow for the juice and white to bring up the reflections on the glass.
Next I painted a soft shadow using the clown pass under the bottle and added the AO for darkening the bottle neck and shadow pass and made some final adjustments to the color with a selective color adjustment layer.

I think your observations for the gradients are great and I would probably always try to achieve them using a combination of lighting in Keyshot and paint them in post.
For transparent renderings I always use as few polys as possible for the models. In your case would reduce or lose the bubbles as it looks very thick like puree right now.
And for a more heroic look I suggest to lower the camera nearer to the ground so that it slightly looks up! :D

Hope it helps.

Offline Will Gibbons

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 11:36:45 am »
Claudius has a nice breakdown there! Kudos!

One thing also worth mentioning is that your OJ volume should extend into the glass volume. This means the orange juice should intersect the lass material in order for KS8 nested dielectrics to behave well. As for render settings, your Ray Bounces shouldn't need to be more than about 10 max I believe. Rendering in product mode preset should provide all sufficient settings unless you want caustics on too, which may brighten up the OJ a bit. With them set so high, you were only slowing down your computer. If using the cloudy plastic, you can also play with scattering directionality. Positive values should make it more transparent and saturated in color whereas negative values will make it more hazy and less saturated. Finally, I'd use Image Styles adjustments to push the color and contrast a bit.

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 03:09:27 pm »
I wanted to throw one trick out there. Remodeling takes long, sometimes. So on your transparent plastic/glass material, add displacement to make it Slightly thicker all around.
Just throw white into the displace, and adjust the value to -.05mm. You might have to bump that up a little bit, depending on the precision. The goal is to get the OJ polygons entirely between the glass, Just a hair.

Also, if you aren't calculating caustics, turn shadows off for the clear object. They likely don't contribute much. You'll need experimental features unlocked for that. It's been saving my butt.

Offline Will Gibbons

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 03:16:12 pm »
I tried again and got this right out of KS. Not perfect and took a while to render, but not a bad place to start. KeyShot file attached if you want to use it.

Did a brief touch-up in post and you can see how it looks after 3 min in photoshop.

Offline Will Gibbons

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 03:44:26 pm »
I wanted to throw one trick out there. Remodeling takes long, sometimes. So on your transparent plastic/glass material, add displacement to make it Slightly thicker all around.
Just throw white into the displace, and adjust the value to -.05mm. You might have to bump that up a little bit, depending on the precision. The goal is to get the OJ polygons entirely between the glass, Just a hair.

Also, if you aren't calculating caustics, turn shadows off for the clear object. They likely don't contribute much. You'll need experimental features unlocked for that. It's been saving my butt.

Clever! I really like this 'hack' for increasing the size!

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2019, 03:47:12 pm »
You don't always have time to model things again.
I'm not sure how "expensive" that is though. Not quite sure how your displacement works.
Later on, it would be nice to have a feature more like "push" in max. It just moves all the vertexes at once based on normal, so essentially accomplishes the same thing, but without creating any additional geometry.

Online Finema

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2019, 10:09:41 pm »
Hi Will,
We can't download your bip file.
Can you repost it ?
Thanks

Online Andrew_G

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2019, 11:54:24 pm »
Thank you guys!

Keyshot community is just great :) Thank you Claudius for your help and for your thorough explanation. It really makes me  think.

I`ll be honest, I hate making so much postprocess. Yeah, I know that sometimes you need to tweak things up, but just a little bit. Maybe it's me, but making so much in photoshop I`m always afraid that I wont be able to recreate this process in another similar packshot. Of course I know how to use adjusment layers, but I'm always worried that I'll lost physics in a way.

But thanks to your approach, I`m not afraid this anymore, and I finished my work with regular translucent material and some PS tweaking.

At the end of the post are my final rendering. And these are my cheats:

  • used regular translucent material with large translucency distance
  • I switched off self shadows - as turning it on, makes very dark liquid inside glass
  • between liquid and the cap there is invisible light source that is making liquid more translucent

In last point I did exactly the same what Will did. And BTW thank you WIll for your help too :)

Just as I thought best material for Orange Juice would be plastic (cloud). But unfortunately it takes too long to render.  I`m rendering Will's scene – as for now it took about 20 minutes (on Ryzen 1800X) and it's still pretty noisy. And for my final rendering I would need 4 times bigger than this preview size. Madness. I need to make at least few renderings a day to keep my business running so such render times are pretty devastating.

I`ll try to tweak this up, but I dont have much hope.

Below are my final renders. I know that OJ is a little bit oversaturated, but after all this will be used for commercial packshot, so I had to squeeze the things up.

Once again thank you for your help!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 02:05:32 am by Andrew_G »

Offline Esben Oxholm

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 12:35:54 am »
Have been following this thread and I just want to say that the end result looks great! Really good job.
Neat trick adding a lightsource between the cap and liquid!

Offline puyopuyo

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Re: Orange juice - hardest material ever
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 01:58:08 am »
I agree with Esben- looks brilliant! Great job-  :)
One thing, it looks like the shadow from the red juice is spilling over the OJ.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 02:00:23 am by puyopuyo »