Author Topic: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?  (Read 2550 times)

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Offline andy.engelkemier

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Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« on: August 02, 2017, 07:37:37 am »
Is there a way to tear off the scene materials tab? Every time I do something it seems to jump back to the properties tab, then I have to go Back to the materials tab. Not to be confused with the Materials tab in the Library, or the Material tab in the Project Menu.
I'm talking about the Materials (with an S at the end) tab at the bottom of the Scene Tab, grouped together with the Properties and Position Tab.

It's my most frequently visited area. I'd rather not have to click several times in order to get back to it after I do anything.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 08:19:45 am »
I put in a request for an improved material pane as well, I (like you) are used to the way most 3D apps handle the in scene materials list, and its different in KS. Its not as useful as we'd like it to be. I'm from the Cinem4D world, and in there the materials manager is where you can manage them, combine, link, replace, rename, create new, keep unused materials that aren't being used but don't want to get rid of yet. that sort of thing. That would be nice to have in KS, rather than the dynamic list of currently used materials. which is not a bad way of doing it, just not what we are used to.

but yes, having a seperate window for the Scene materials list would be nice. It takes up too much room in the scene tab, so I turned it off, os I don't even see it anymore.

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 08:37:30 am »
Wait, you can turn it Off? How did you manage that? I can scoot it all the way to the bottom, but I can't turn it off. It's tabbed with Properties and Position, so just turning one of those off doesn't really save any space.
I'm using KeyShot 6. Are you suing a different version?

I usually have the Library hidden, but keep the scene tab.

I disagree slightly with your statement saying it's not bad, just different. 3dsMax is a good example. For years they had their compact editor. Nearly everyone agreed that it was a bad way of working, because it slows you down. The old editor only lets you see 16 materials at once. But there can be hundreds of materials in a scene. So you constantly had to clear the editor, and bring in the materials you're working on from your working library. Then they bought Node Joe and you can now have as many materials splayed out as you want, AND it shows you all it's connections. Maya is somewhat similar. Blender kind of sucks, from what I've seen, because I think you can only edit one at a time, similar to keyshot. So you can't easily share a node between multiple materials.

Having to save a material to a library to keep it around, or create a dummy and assign a material to that so you don't lose it IS a different way of working, but since it takes longer I would definitely not call it just different.
If doing something different and slower causes better results, then I'd just say it's different. But if doing something different and slower ends up with the same results, only slower, then I'd say it's worse.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 08:43:08 am »
You can turn it off in the preferences, i am using KS6.

Under Interface, untick the box for "Show in-project material list under material properties tab"

Looking at it now, I think this is not what I thought it was. This turns off the in project materials list under the main materials tab, not under the Scene tab. That one still stays. So, that will clean up the materials tab, but it doesn't get rid of it under the Scene tab. Sorry if I got your hopes up :)

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 08:48:12 am »
And in my comment about being bad vs just different, I just see that there are more people than I (and you) that don't seem to have issues with the way KS currently works, so it must work fine for them. I know i love the effeciencey of the material manager in C4D, as that is what I've been using for so long. Its my way of thinking.

There is a ton of stuff that I wished worked like C4d, I hate having to click 3 times to get the move tool, I hate that I have to have the scene tab selected in order to select the object in the viewer window. I hate not having short cuts for everything, although that is changing in KS7. Can't wait for that. basically if I could have KS 7 built into C4D, I'd be in heaven. But I know that isn't how everyone works.

I'm all for trying to be the most effiecient and quick about doing stuff, I get annoyed if I have to click on things that should be keyboard commands. So I understand your point. I'm hoping there is a material manager update in the works for KS7.1 or something, it is really needed as the materials get more complex.

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 10:31:59 am »
Yeah, there are always different users with varying backgrounds and different needs. I see some users doing nothing but applying materials straight from the built in material library, managing to change a couple colors of those, taking a screengrab and they're done. No changing the environment. No worrying about blown out highlights. That's just good enough for them and it was easy. And others are making advanced materials with the material graph using complex masks that create really unique materials, creating a custom environment for every shot (which is not a great experience in Keyshot as well since you only see one environment in your scene, even if there are more through scene sets), doing different aspect ratios for every camera, tweaking materials to render for speed, etc.

But if something can be done without negatively effecting the drag and drop user, that positively effects the advanced users, then do that before spending time on developing a tool for looking at a model in your VR goggles. I'm sure some people are geeked about that, but that seems pretty similar to adding 3D printing capabilities in Photoshop. Ok, no, it's not That bad, but I thought I'd remind people that happened.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 01:03:49 pm »
Agree about the VR thing. I fear its going to go the way of 3D movies. Looks like more of a fad to me.

But I could be wrong. Being married has proven that more than once:)

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 01:23:23 pm »
Well, it's gimmicky. Like, "Hey, check out our product using this new technology." Makes you say "neat." So it's a good marketing tool for certain things. Just like the 3D product pan arounds, which I think they called Keyshot VR before? 

I'm not a fan of gimmick usually, although I did do an AR thing for a tradeshow for someone. AR is really just VR done like you're looking through a window that your holding.

Good experiences are worth so much more than gimmicks. I accidentally came across this one the other day, and it's pleasant around every turn. Open the grill and let it sit for a few seconds.
https://www.weber.com/US/en/genesis-ii/model/burner_4

For some reason I can't find it On their site. I had to search Weber genesis 3D and click on some award.
This is Semi gimmicky but such a good experience, and informative.

Anyway, there is a right way to follow a fad for sure. And VR will continue for a while until it evolves into something else. Also 3D movies are still sticking around. Kids like them. I mean, they've been around since Michael Jackson, but have just evolved a bit. Not nearly as popular as some other things because enough people feel uncomfortable/sick with it. And those same people get Worse with VR.

Ok, so my point is that it's the experience that matters much more than a feature. Focus on doing things right first.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 01:41:36 pm »
Wow, that example is amazingly smooth. I would really like to know how they did that. That has to be rendering in realtime with the reflections and mapping and everything there is no way thats just a load of stills.

Red bull did one like that as well for their F1 car. I'll try to find out. was totally custom in that it had layers and shells that could be turned off to see the innards, then showing airflow and stuff. Really neat.

Offline andy.engelkemier

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 01:55:20 pm »
I did some digging. https://threejs.org/

so many of those examples are amazing. And you're right. It's all baked occlusion for self shadowed GI. Other shadows are real though. Reflections are reflection maps. This method doesn't look good on transparent models.

3js is free, but I looked into it. You'll need a programmer specializing in it to get everything posted properly. I thought about doing something, but then Quickly hit a wall. Making the real-time model isn't a problem. But the coding here got deep really quick. I was all, YAY, I put in a 3D model and can move around....locally. Putting that on a server is another thing, then getting any interactions, and more advanced materials. Yeesh.

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 02:05:57 pm »
Yep, my eyes crossed pretty quick when I ran across this a couple years ago at a different job. Seemed like a silver bullet at first, we ended up buying a different package then had to hire a javascript guy whenever we made new products for different clients. Whole different kind of thinking for that stuff.

Offline DriesV

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 12:50:51 am »
Hi Andy,

Some feedback on your questions and comments...

Is there a way to tear off the scene materials tab? Every time I do something it seems to jump back to the properties tab, then I have to go Back to the materials tab.
This is fixed in KeyShot 7. The last active subtab within the Scene tab will now persist. When picking geometry in realtime, it will not automatically switch back to the Properties subtab like it does in KeyShot 6.
Also, in KeyShot 7 you can tear off the tabs in the Project window. So you can have the Scene and Material tabs side by side. The 'Advanced' Workspace takes care of that for you. It will dock the Project window, a separate Scene tab, Studios and the Geometry View. The Library gets hidden.

Having to save a material to a library to keep it around, or create a dummy and assign a material to that so you don't lose it IS a different way of working, but since it takes longer I would definitely not call it just different.
If doing something different and slower causes better results, then I'd just say it's different. But if doing something different and slower ends up with the same results, only slower, then I'd say it's worse.
"Persistent in-scene materials" (materials not applied to geometry) is something we have been discussing and developing. There is already support for it in the code. It is "simply" a matter of finding a good UI solution.
As was mentioned by Matt, the current workflow, with only applied materials being kept, is fine for the majority of our users. This request has mainly come from advanced users like yourselves.
In short: it is a matter of when, not if, it gets implemented.

... creating a custom environment for every shot (which is not a great experience in Keyshot as well since you only see one environment in your scene, even if there are more through scene sets) ...
KeyShot 7 should help a great deal with that as we now have an Environment list, which contains all the environments of the scene.

Dries
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:11:17 am by DriesV »

Offline DriesV

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 01:14:39 am »
Hi Matt,

And some feedback on your comments...

I hate having to click 3 times to get the move tool.
The Move Tool now has a hotkey in KeyShot 7: Ctrl/Cmd+D

I hate that I have to have the scene tab selected in order to select the object in the viewer window.
This should be solved in KeyShot 7 by docking the Scene tab separately.

I hate not having short cuts for everything, although that is changing in KS7.
KeyShot 7 does allow to customize existing shortcuts. You can not just yet create "macros" or specific actions though.
What are you looking for in that regard?

Dries

Offline mattjgerard

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Re: Tear off Scene Materials Tab?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 08:58:53 am »
Thanks for the responses, Dries, really appreciate it.

To answer your last question, I haven't thought of the macro side of things, that is an interesting idea though.

Mainly, i tend to use Cinema 4D as my ultimate example of flexibility in shortcuts and interface customization.  Any button or menu item can be docked, custom panels of buttons can be created and docked, any action that is performed in the program can have a shortcut assigned to it. I have not had the chance to dig into KS7 to see how far this goes, but I do know that the move tool has a shortcut now, which is enough alone to upgrade! I have KS7 on my machine right now, I just need to finish the projects I am in KS6 at the moment, then I shall move to 7 and never look back.

I love the customization of the ribbon toolbar that is possible in 7 and the additional flexibility of the interface. Its really really nice to have the saveable workspaces.