KeyShot Forum

Technical discussions => Post-processing => Topic started by: PerFotoVDB on March 19, 2019, 02:42:54 am

Title: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: PerFotoVDB on March 19, 2019, 02:42:54 am
Hi guys,

I need some help in using clown passes to make selections/mattes of parts in after effects.
Looks like I need to key the clown color and convert to an alpha or track matte. I am not sure, I don't use AE often.
(cryptomatte in KS would be a great addition;) )

Does anyone know how to do that?

Many thanks,
Per
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: froggeryz on March 19, 2019, 03:04:49 am
The few times I have done this I just applied a flat white material for the parts I needed and flat black for the rest and then just rendered the sequence again.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Esben Oxholm on March 19, 2019, 03:29:32 am
The few times I have done this I just applied a flat white material for the parts I needed and flat black for the rest and then just rendered the sequence again.

That's what I do as well and make sure to render it using the custom control for better AA.
I struggle to get clean edges on the selection when trying to key the clown pass.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: PerFotoVDB on March 19, 2019, 03:38:25 am
Thanks guys,

I did the same. Applied a flat black material to all parts except the one I am rendering new again, this way I have proper occlusion.
Unfortunately, the alpha in the exr still takes the geo with the flat black into account. I want the flat black material not be picked up by the alpha.
Would be awesome to have some more control over this. Either on an object level or on a material level.
That's why I needed to output the clown, to make a selection and mask.

To bad KS lacks some proper composting support.

Do you guys have any workaround?

Thanks, P
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: PerFotoVDB on March 19, 2019, 03:58:56 am
@Esben: overall I feel the custom control is the best way to render because of the better AA control.
Still looking for optimal settings in 4K animations on network nodes.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Esben Oxholm on March 19, 2019, 04:35:14 am
To mask out the re-renderet part you would need to create an additional output of a pure black and white mask: Flat black on all parts except the one you've rendered again. Flat white on the re-renderet part. No alpha on this one.

Output and use that black and white mask sequence as a luma track matte for the original re-renderet part.
That should give you the re-renderet part on a transparent background.
Does it make sense?

Would indeed be great to be able to render selected objects only on a transparent background with proper masking.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: PerFotoVDB on March 20, 2019, 02:18:24 am
True! Why didn't I think of that? ;)

I used now keylight to key the yellow color in the clown pass and used that as a mask in AE.

Will give your method a go as well. I expect to have fewer edge issues.

Thanks!
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: andy.engelkemier on March 20, 2019, 04:30:07 am
http://tepavicharov.com/?p=25 (http://tepavicharov.com/?p=25)

This. This should be the inspiration for clown masks in keyshot.

Ok, it's has WAY more features than it used it. But give the video a watch. The main takeaways there are, select object, render out luminance map. So you can Immediately use it in after effects, Or have better selections in photoshop, without extra steps.
OR, you can choose to render object ID. It Randomly assigns colors to every single object. Or material ID. It's Not based on the material color, so if you have 5 black objects they don't look the same!!!
I sent him a message back in like 2010 and he changed that method to not include desaturated colors. I think it now uses the same color output by using the same order, RGBCMY - then divide between those, once or twice, then cut the value in half, and do the same thing. Anyway, the order always ends up being the same and the colors are always as far apart as possible. None of this purple next to magenta garbage.

And if you want to Really wow some folks. Give a way to select an object(s), then render the selection Including transparent objects, and all reflections with the only objects allowed reflection to be your object, where all the colors are changed to black. That way your object is selected everywhere it's seen. This takes Way too long to set up manually. It also doesn't work if the object is reflected in another object, and that object's reflection is reflected in another object clearly. But that is pretty darn rare that it's noticeable past the first reflection. (I say that, but it happened to me yesterday)

Good selections save So much time in post.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Eugen Fetsch on March 21, 2019, 04:18:49 am
How about implementing Cryptomatte (Introduction (https://vimeo.com/136954966), on github (https://github.com/Psyop/Cryptomatte)) like other render engines? ::) That would save a ton of time in compositing.

KeyShot is not focusing on animation or VFX production, that's why we're missing such features. Otherwise we would already have ...
- Camera animation export for FBX
- Multilayer EXR support for render output
- Diffuse & reflection indirect passes
- UV pass, for texture replacement in post
- Object ID pass
- Vector pass, for adding motion blur in post
- etc.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Esben Oxholm on March 21, 2019, 10:08:04 am
Would indeed be very nice to have cryptomatte, camera fbx export, vector pass, etc... :)
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Eugen Fetsch on March 22, 2019, 02:39:30 am
Would indeed be very nice to have cryptomatte, camera fbx export, vector pass, etc... :)

I would cry happy tears if only fbx camera export would be available and howl like

(http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/The-Mask-Wolf-Howl.gif)

seeing all the rest.

Imagine that easy life, adding tracked motion graphics in your renderings or saving hours of rendertimes with vecotor motion blur. :o

A studio asked me once for a camera export and I was like: "sorry it's not available in KS"  :-[

The only workflow I could find, is to put checker texture materials on everything in the szene, render it with 8 samples in prieview mode and track it manually in post. If somebody knows anything better then this, I would highly appreciate to see it.   
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: DriesV on March 22, 2019, 07:10:14 am
Hey guys,

Just letting you know that we are logging these requests and keeping track of them.
I can't give promises on development though. As some have correctly noted, VFX is not our main focus, and that is indeed why some of these features haven't made it in KeyShot yet.

Dries
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: andy.engelkemier on March 22, 2019, 07:15:03 am
Would it help to know every post I’ve made in the last two weeks was Only related to renderings I’m doing for packaging?

Not vfx or animation. Things like object I’d can still be a huge time saver.

Should we post what the request is for more specifically?
The reason I’m using keyshot is primarily because the clients Also use keyshot.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Esben Oxholm on March 22, 2019, 07:32:00 am
Just letting you know that we are logging these requests and keeping track of them.
I can't give promises on development though. As some have correctly noted, VFX is not our main focus, and that is indeed why some of these features haven't made it in KeyShot yet.

Hi Dries.
Thanks, good to know. I'll second Andy here. Don't need it for crazy vfx stuff. Would be quite helpful to have for basic product animations as well :)
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: DriesV on March 22, 2019, 07:32:09 am
Yes, more details help. Or showing why the current tools are a pain, and other solutions would not be.

Dries
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Esben Oxholm on March 22, 2019, 08:27:09 am
Yes, more details help. Or showing why the current tools are a pain, and other solutions would not be.

Sure, makes sense. Will get back with some examples.
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: MWo on March 22, 2019, 01:17:19 pm
I am sure that with the existing features, we can get easily very far and fast to stunning visuals and animations.

This is an interesting thread!
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: Eugen Fetsch on March 23, 2019, 05:46:37 am
Hey guys,

Just letting you know that we are logging these requests and keeping track of them.
I can't give promises on development though. As some have correctly noted, VFX is not our main focus, and that is indeed why some of these features haven't made it in KeyShot yet.

Dries

Hi Dries, thanks for joining this discussion.

Just to clarify, it is not about to have a VFX pipeline in KS, but about some features that help to work in other applications. Some of them are obvious, like camera animation export...

... it can be used in After Effects and other software to create tracked title animations or add other effects like particles, smoke and fluids (Example (https://youtu.be/rigV1lhsJps)) on top of the animation rendered in KS.

Multilayer EXR is an industry standard and cannot be ignored by KS any longer. (We had this talk already  ;) ) Working in compositing software like Resolve, Fusion, Nuke, Blender, etc. is much easier when you have all your passes in one file.
(https://www.camomiles.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/fusion_comp.png)
Seriously, is it so difficult to implement a multilayer EXR export for render passes and layers? How is it more difficult as to do a multilayer PSD file export? We have now 8bit, 16bit and 32bit PSD - wow, that's an evolution!!!

Motion blur definetely adds more realism to the renders but doubles the render time. Here an example how a vector pass can be used to add this effect cheaper in post production. Vector Path (https://youtu.be/6Hk2jhbQTuI)

The work of an artist doesn't end with a clean render image, especially in animations.
A normal path can be used to relight a completely black parts of the render in post. It saves animation projects day before the deadline. But - bump maps are not included in KS normal pass!!! And please, don't say that they are included in the interior mode. Who likes to render twice to get an appropriate pass?

I could go on and on... but it's like writing words into sand on a beach. The next wave / post / email will clean everything.

Like Andy wrote it ...
Quote
The reason I’m using keyshot is primarily because the clients Also use keyshot.
I feel with him and share this experience. How sad is that?!

... it sounds angry and I truely am. KS is a love-hate! It's awesome for stills and a pain for animations. The time you spent to convert clients KSPs into other render suits is worth it later during the animation and compositing. Our prices for KS animations are simply higher ::) because of the dificulties:
- complex animation process
- missing export options
- missing or broken passes
- expensive and almost not existent dedicated render farms
- etc.

But things are changing, more and more clients agree to go with other render solutions for their animations and that helps.

So, keep logging and tracking ;)
Title: Re: how to use clown passes in after effects
Post by: PerFotoVDB on March 25, 2019, 06:23:47 am
Same here, full vfx capabilities are not necessary but I can't even decently select a part of the motion blurred clown pass in AE to do some color correction on it.
Cryptomatte could easily fix this issue.
Multi-exr, motion vectors and point position passes would greatly be appreciated, same as light select passes (see vray, maxwell). Modern-day compositing is slightly different from the very basic of passes or system KS has.

I do like keyshot more and more each day but currently, its really lacking some animation flexibility after rendering.

It can't be that hard to implement something similar, right? ;)
Cheers,
Per