KeyShot Forum

Technical discussions => Plugins => Cinema 4D => Topic started by: mattjgerard on June 15, 2017, 11:52:22 am

Title: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on June 15, 2017, 11:52:22 am
Hey all, not sure if this is a big or not, but I'm having issues with the normals tag  on objects then shooting them over to KS using the "Render" button in the plugin. When it gets over to KS, the object is black, no matter what I do to the materials. In C4D, if I delete the Normals tag, hit update, KS will display the material correctly.

When the object is black in KS because of the normals tag being on the object, if I use the geometry editor to recalculate the normals, all is good, but then I loose the live linking.

I've tried all the options in the normals tag (Align face, Align Vertex, Swap) and they all end up black in KS. I can delete the normals tags and send to KS and everything is fine, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on June 15, 2017, 01:48:35 pm
Again - an example will help so I can pass on to development.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on June 16, 2017, 06:19:22 am
OK, I may have answered my own question here, but I'll share what I have found. I've attached some files for you to test.

1) Normals tags are only used for internal rendering in C4D. They have no use for Keyshot, therefor can be deleted without consequence (as far as I can tell)

2) Normals tags are only applied to objects that are imported, not parametric objects created in C4D. There is no place to "Apply" a normals tag in C4D, it is automatically applied when the object is imported. The tag allows aligning and reversing normals on a purely rendering facet, and does not change the physical direction the normal is facing when interacting with dynamics and other operations that utilize a polygon's normal data. It is akin to a phong tag, but holds much more data that is invisible to the user.

3) great link here- http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-922155.html

So, that leaves me with this conclusion- If not rendering in C4D (which I don't anymore), I am just using it for modeling, then shooting to keyshot for rendering, delete the normal tags. They offer nothing that I can see in Keyshot unless you want your model to be completely black :)

If I was king for a day, I would love to see keyshot just ignore the tags. Then they can stay in the C4D file, and do their job there, but just get ignored when pushed to keyshot.  Maybe there is a way to get the plugin to just ignore the that particular tag. Not a programmer, so I'm not going to make any assumptions on how hard that would be :)

Reproduce the problem-

1) Open C4D and import the 8020 extrusion (merge)
2) Note the normals tag in the object tree
3) Hit "render" in the KS plugin, model will turn up black in KS
4) go back to C4D and delete the normals tag, hit update in the plug in
5) Model appears as it should.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on June 16, 2017, 12:39:13 pm
Thanks - very helpful. I will forward to Sean.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on June 16, 2017, 12:53:03 pm
Welcome. Glad I can help, let me know if there is anything else I can help with.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on June 16, 2017, 03:24:22 pm
Will let you know. We may reach out directly to you to get this sorted. It is great to have someone with expertise in this application who's willing to help make it better!
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: davetwo on June 21, 2017, 12:05:16 am
Thanks for the info. I just came here to ask why my c4d files were comin in black.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on June 21, 2017, 05:59:53 am
Thanks for the info. I just came here to ask why my c4d files were comin in black.

Well, glad to be of assistance! Took me a couple hours of troubleshooting as not every model would come in black. Until I figured out that I could correct with with the "Recalculate Normals" in the geometry editor, then it led me back to the normals tag that is slapped on everything that is imported into C4D.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on July 20, 2017, 11:13:46 am
Yep, this is still a thorn in my side, if there is a way to get the Plug in or the importer or something to ignore the normals tag, maybe part of the export process in the plug in would be to delete all the normals tags. This is a huge deal when using the the mograph cloner, then having to delete the normals tage from hundreds of objects.

Please? Please? I know I can delete them myself, but hey, can't hurt to ask right?
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on July 20, 2017, 12:23:01 pm
Still looking into this.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on July 21, 2017, 05:14:30 am
Thank you sir, appreciate it!
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on July 21, 2017, 11:22:40 am
Quick update from development:

"C4D normals problem: The API crashes on this normals tag, and I have no idea why.
Quick fix is to ignore the tag and just use the regular normals.
Like the guy suggests."

Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on July 31, 2017, 07:05:09 am
Well, good to know, is that the API from Maxon that is crashing?  I think I might look into a script in C4D to delete all the normals tags before I export. That would be the best.

Is the plugin for C4D developed by luxion, or is it being supplied by Maxon? Just curious, as I can put in a bug request with them as well, not sure if that would help at all, but I can do what I can.

Thanks for looking into it!

Matt
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on July 31, 2017, 11:33:39 am
The API is provide by Maxon, and we are developing the plugin. We have a fix for the normals issue. We are simply ignoring them.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on August 01, 2017, 06:31:07 am
Brilliant!

 Already got my 2 seats of Keyshot 7 update purchased and waiting for the release! Can't wait! And have the IT dept finally kicked in the pants to install the network render, so we are all in on this.

Thanks for keeping me updated, will this plugin update with KS 7 or is it an update for the KS6 plugin available right now?
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: guest84672 on August 08, 2017, 12:41:04 pm
The plugins will come this week, or next week at the latest. We have to make sure it all plays nicely in case you have 2 plugins installed.

However, if you have the plugin for 6 installed, then it should "just work" when you install 7. But dedicated KeyShot 7 plugins are coming.
Title: Re: Normals Tag causes problems
Post by: mattjgerard on August 08, 2017, 01:08:44 pm
The plugins will come this week, or next week at the latest. We have to make sure it all plays nicely in case you have 2 plugins installed.

However, if you have the plugin for 6 installed, then it should "just work" when you install 7. But dedicated KeyShot 7 plugins are coming.

And it is working great right now with KS7. I have both 6 and 7 loaded, but working exclusively in 7 now that I have polished off all my old projects.

Cheers!